1
00:00:12,709 --> 00:00:09,140
[Music]

2
00:00:12,719 --> 00:00:17,160
oh

3
00:00:17,170 --> 00:00:20,950
[Music]

4
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,170
so

5
00:00:24,180 --> 00:00:39,990
[Music]

6
00:00:43,750 --> 00:00:41,750
hey guys how's it going welcome back to

7
00:00:44,709 --> 00:00:43,760
disclosure team i'm your host vinnie

8
00:00:46,310 --> 00:00:44,719
adams

9
00:00:49,029 --> 00:00:46,320
thank you to everybody that's here live

10
00:00:50,310 --> 00:00:49,039
on youtube and then thank you also to

11
00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:50,320
everybody that may be listening or

12
00:00:56,790 --> 00:00:53,440
watching after today on the anomalous

13
00:00:57,910 --> 00:00:56,800
podcast network or on youtube as well

14
00:01:00,229 --> 00:00:57,920
i'm really looking forward to this

15
00:01:02,150 --> 00:01:00,239
conversation so let's jump straight into

16
00:01:03,910 --> 00:01:02,160
it i will quickly say if anybody does

17
00:01:05,830 --> 00:01:03,920
have any questions here in the live chat

18
00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:05,840
please pop them in capital letters it

19
00:01:09,990 --> 00:01:07,920
enables me to just see them

20
00:01:12,070 --> 00:01:10,000
or have more of a chance of seeing them

21
00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:12,080
um i may save them to the end of the

22
00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:14,000
interview depends on whether they fit

23
00:01:17,190 --> 00:01:15,680
and slot into the

24
00:01:18,950 --> 00:01:17,200
the the topic that we're discussing at

25
00:01:20,550 --> 00:01:18,960
that at that time so

26
00:01:23,109 --> 00:01:20,560
let's not waste any more time i'd love

27
00:01:26,710 --> 00:01:23,119
to introduce my guest uh please welcome

28
00:01:29,590 --> 00:01:28,070
i'm very well thank you so much for

29
00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:29,600
agreeing to do this i've been looking

30
00:01:33,910 --> 00:01:31,840
forward to this since we agreed on it

31
00:01:36,149 --> 00:01:33,920
me too great pleasure looking forward

32
00:01:38,149 --> 00:01:36,159
excellent so i guess initially my first

33
00:01:39,749 --> 00:01:38,159
question would be

34
00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:39,759
what came first your interest in

35
00:01:45,350 --> 00:01:42,640
aviation or ufos like where did it all

36
00:01:48,469 --> 00:01:45,360
kind of start with things in the sky

37
00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:48,479
oh it was definitely aviation um

38
00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:51,600
my dad was an engineer and an inventor

39
00:01:55,109 --> 00:01:53,520
unusually so i grew up in a sort of

40
00:01:58,709 --> 00:01:55,119
rather uh

41
00:02:01,350 --> 00:01:58,719
engineering minding minded household and

42
00:02:03,990 --> 00:02:01,360
i think one of my earliest memories

43
00:02:06,310 --> 00:02:04,000
is just being fascinated by planes

44
00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:06,320
aircraft space

45
00:02:10,469 --> 00:02:08,160
it was you know it was very much a topic

46
00:02:12,949 --> 00:02:10,479
of conversation in our house so it was

47
00:02:13,990 --> 00:02:12,959
definitely that first i was a very late

48
00:02:15,510 --> 00:02:14,000
um

49
00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:15,520
sort of uh

50
00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:17,760
i developed a late interest in ufos in

51
00:02:21,430 --> 00:02:19,360
fact actually it was my dad again who

52
00:02:24,470 --> 00:02:21,440
sent me a book it was tim good's book

53
00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:24,480
you know above top secret oh yes um

54
00:02:28,229 --> 00:02:27,040
sometime it was while i was at jane's i

55
00:02:29,510 --> 00:02:28,239
i'd never

56
00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:29,520
james defense weekly which is the

57
00:02:34,150 --> 00:02:30,720
magazine

58
00:02:36,390 --> 00:02:34,160
i worked at for for quite a long time um

59
00:02:38,470 --> 00:02:36,400
never given them really any thought up

60
00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:38,480
until then but um

61
00:02:41,750 --> 00:02:40,640
that sort of tweaked my interest in the

62
00:02:43,670 --> 00:02:41,760
subject

63
00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:43,680
actually any sightings at all over the

64
00:02:48,869 --> 00:02:47,040
years of your own oh never never well

65
00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:48,879
not

66
00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:53,200
a ufo that most people would

67
00:02:58,229 --> 00:02:56,640
dis distinguish as a ufo i the closest i

68
00:02:59,350 --> 00:02:58,239
ever came to seeing anything really

69
00:03:01,750 --> 00:02:59,360
unusual

70
00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:01,760
was something that i saw

71
00:03:06,949 --> 00:03:04,400
uh outside area 51 um

72
00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:06,959
back in a long time ago 19

73
00:03:10,949 --> 00:03:09,760
well actually 30 years ago 1992.

74
00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:10,959
so um

75
00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:12,640
we can talk about that if you like but

76
00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:14,560
it was a

77
00:03:22,390 --> 00:03:19,120
a sphere of very bright orange

78
00:03:24,710 --> 00:03:22,400
plasma-like light um and

79
00:03:25,589 --> 00:03:24,720
it was like certainly wasn't an airplane

80
00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:25,599
so

81
00:03:29,830 --> 00:03:28,000
we can uh we can chat about that

82
00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:29,840
yeah absolutely that's great but let's

83
00:03:32,789 --> 00:03:31,040
take it back you mentioned jane's

84
00:03:34,630 --> 00:03:32,799
defense weekly so

85
00:03:36,630 --> 00:03:34,640
you know how did you how did you go from

86
00:03:38,229 --> 00:03:36,640
an interest in aviation to actually

87
00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:38,239
writing about it for such a you know a

88
00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:39,840
well-established

89
00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:42,560
publication

90
00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:45,200
uh i guess i was lucky really i got some

91
00:03:48,309 --> 00:03:46,400
lucky breaks

92
00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:48,319
i left university i had a degree in

93
00:03:55,509 --> 00:03:51,280
arabic and islamic studies so that had

94
00:03:56,470 --> 00:03:55,519
nothing to do with what i went on to do

95
00:04:03,270 --> 00:03:56,480
i

96
00:04:05,190 --> 00:04:03,280
thought you know

97
00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:05,200
i i'm one of those people i knew i had

98
00:04:09,110 --> 00:04:06,799
to go into something that

99
00:04:11,509 --> 00:04:09,120
would really engage me i just

100
00:04:12,869 --> 00:04:11,519
you know i couldn't do something unless

101
00:04:14,309 --> 00:04:12,879
i was

102
00:04:16,710 --> 00:04:14,319
passionately engaged in the subject

103
00:04:19,430 --> 00:04:16,720
matter and as we've already said

104
00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:19,440
i had a had a long-standing interest in

105
00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:21,440
aviation so i thought well i want to do

106
00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:23,280
something to do with aerospace

107
00:04:26,150 --> 00:04:24,160
um

108
00:04:28,950 --> 00:04:26,160
but i didn't have an engineering degree

109
00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:28,960
so that ruled me out of that i maths is

110
00:04:32,390 --> 00:04:31,520
not my strong suit

111
00:04:33,749 --> 00:04:32,400
and

112
00:04:36,550 --> 00:04:33,759
so

113
00:04:39,510 --> 00:04:36,560
actually it was my good old dad who said

114
00:04:42,150 --> 00:04:39,520
to me again have you ever thought about

115
00:04:44,150 --> 00:04:42,160
writing about the subject i had never

116
00:04:46,629 --> 00:04:44,160
thought that that was a possibility

117
00:04:48,870 --> 00:04:46,639
uh so but at that point i thought yeah

118
00:04:50,550 --> 00:04:48,880
actually you know that's a great idea i

119
00:04:53,030 --> 00:04:50,560
like the idea of that

120
00:04:54,629 --> 00:04:53,040
so i at that point i just

121
00:04:56,629 --> 00:04:54,639
approached a number of different

122
00:04:57,990 --> 00:04:56,639
magazines in fact once

123
00:04:59,749 --> 00:04:58,000
you know half the battle is knowing what

124
00:05:02,550 --> 00:04:59,759
you want to do and then when you know

125
00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:02,560
what you want to do you can target

126
00:05:07,990 --> 00:05:05,360
your interest and i relentlessly

127
00:05:09,029 --> 00:05:08,000
targeted a number of publications and in

128
00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:09,039
the end

129
00:05:12,310 --> 00:05:10,720
i got a job with a

130
00:05:14,870 --> 00:05:12,320
a very

131
00:05:17,510 --> 00:05:14,880
uh was not well known at all but it was

132
00:05:19,909 --> 00:05:17,520
a trade publication called inter avia

133
00:05:22,310 --> 00:05:19,919
it was based in geneva but it had a uk

134
00:05:24,710 --> 00:05:22,320
office and they gave me the job they

135
00:05:26,870 --> 00:05:24,720
said we'll give you a trial and that was

136
00:05:29,110 --> 00:05:26,880
in 1983

137
00:05:31,830 --> 00:05:29,120
and in 86

138
00:05:33,830 --> 00:05:31,840
jane's defense weekly offered me a job

139
00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:33,840
of a reporter

140
00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:34,720
and

141
00:05:39,350 --> 00:05:37,600
uh the following year i was given the

142
00:05:40,950 --> 00:05:39,360
aerospace editor's job

143
00:05:42,790 --> 00:05:40,960
and that was great because it was a real

144
00:05:43,749 --> 00:05:42,800
step up that was quite a

145
00:05:45,270 --> 00:05:43,759
jane's

146
00:05:47,830 --> 00:05:45,280
back in those days certainly was quite

147
00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:47,840
an investigative journal we sort of

148
00:05:52,390 --> 00:05:50,160
like to think we um

149
00:05:54,469 --> 00:05:52,400
kicked down a few doors um

150
00:05:55,350 --> 00:05:54,479
and it was a very good

151
00:05:56,629 --> 00:05:55,360
fun

152
00:05:57,590 --> 00:05:56,639
solid

153
00:06:00,790 --> 00:05:57,600
uh

154
00:06:03,590 --> 00:06:00,800
journalistic organization to work for

155
00:06:05,110 --> 00:06:03,600
excellent yeah and and did i did it help

156
00:06:07,189 --> 00:06:05,120
you forge relationships with people

157
00:06:09,270 --> 00:06:07,199
within the aerospace world and even

158
00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:09,280
possibly the military world and you know

159
00:06:14,469 --> 00:06:11,440
how did that sort of benefit you

160
00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:14,479
well it did um because

161
00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:16,960
a trade journal is not like a newspaper

162
00:06:21,830 --> 00:06:19,520
it is it has this weird sort of

163
00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:21,840
slightly symbiotic relationship with the

164
00:06:25,270 --> 00:06:23,520
industry it's reporting on and i think

165
00:06:27,830 --> 00:06:25,280
this is probably the same for any

166
00:06:29,430 --> 00:06:27,840
trade publication that reports on an

167
00:06:31,749 --> 00:06:29,440
industrial sector

168
00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:31,759
um so on the one hand

169
00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:32,560
uh

170
00:06:37,350 --> 00:06:34,160
these companies will caught you they

171
00:06:39,909 --> 00:06:37,360
will they want their copy their you know

172
00:06:40,790 --> 00:06:39,919
whatever it is that's new on their

173
00:06:44,390 --> 00:06:40,800
quotes

174
00:06:47,110 --> 00:06:44,400
radar screen to go into the publication

175
00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:47,120
um on the other hand it is down to us

176
00:06:52,629 --> 00:06:50,000
not to kowtow or panda to them you have

177
00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:52,639
to you know give them a fair trial in

178
00:06:56,629 --> 00:06:54,400
whatever it is that they do

179
00:06:58,550 --> 00:06:56,639
um so you kind of tread that walk that

180
00:06:59,830 --> 00:06:58,560
tightrope really between

181
00:07:02,309 --> 00:06:59,840
um

182
00:07:04,469 --> 00:07:02,319
i wouldn't say i ever cozy it up to them

183
00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:04,479
but on the other hand i was respectful

184
00:07:07,510 --> 00:07:05,520
of them

185
00:07:08,870 --> 00:07:07,520
i was certainly respectful or tried to

186
00:07:11,189 --> 00:07:08,880
be of

187
00:07:13,029 --> 00:07:11,199
um the facts

188
00:07:14,469 --> 00:07:13,039
and as long as you adhered to the facts

189
00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:14,479
i felt that was

190
00:07:17,749 --> 00:07:16,800
probably a pretty good guideline for how

191
00:07:23,029 --> 00:07:17,759
you

192
00:07:25,189 --> 00:07:23,039
to begin with it was a very sort of

193
00:07:27,110 --> 00:07:25,199
ordinary kind of beat for me i just

194
00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:27,120
reported on

195
00:07:31,510 --> 00:07:28,840
the developments of the day in the

196
00:07:33,350 --> 00:07:31,520
aerospace defense world because

197
00:07:35,430 --> 00:07:33,360
jane's defense weekly obviously was

198
00:07:37,589 --> 00:07:35,440
covering the military side of things

199
00:07:39,589 --> 00:07:37,599
but after a while you sort of you tend

200
00:07:42,830 --> 00:07:39,599
to develop a set of interests

201
00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:42,840
and the late certainly the late

202
00:07:46,869 --> 00:07:44,800
80s um

203
00:07:50,309 --> 00:07:46,879
when did i get the job i got the job in

204
00:07:53,270 --> 00:07:50,319
86 i became editor in 87

205
00:07:55,830 --> 00:07:53,280
so by the late 80s there was a lot of

206
00:07:57,029 --> 00:07:55,840
surfacing stuff about black world

207
00:07:59,990 --> 00:07:57,039
programs

208
00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:00,000
the f-117 stealth fighter had not yet

209
00:08:04,550 --> 00:08:02,160
revealed itself or been revealed there

210
00:08:07,909 --> 00:08:04,560
was emerging talk about a

211
00:08:09,029 --> 00:08:07,919
hypersonic replacement of the blackbird

212
00:08:11,270 --> 00:08:09,039
deemed

213
00:08:12,629 --> 00:08:11,280
rumored to be this thing called aurora

214
00:08:13,909 --> 00:08:12,639
well you know

215
00:08:16,230 --> 00:08:13,919
i was in the

216
00:08:17,830 --> 00:08:16,240
right place at the right time we had it

217
00:08:19,350 --> 00:08:17,840
i had a global i was based in london but

218
00:08:21,270 --> 00:08:19,360
i had a global beat

219
00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:21,280
my expense account back then was

220
00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:23,280
unusually generous so i could travel and

221
00:08:29,029 --> 00:08:27,120
i could go and talk to people about

222
00:08:31,909 --> 00:08:29,039
these and other programs and and and it

223
00:08:35,509 --> 00:08:31,919
was always america for me that was the

224
00:08:37,509 --> 00:08:35,519
the the good and fascinating place to uh

225
00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:37,519
to go and really dig these stories up

226
00:08:41,589 --> 00:08:39,680
because it was the place where the the

227
00:08:43,750 --> 00:08:41,599
real technology was at so i spent a lot

228
00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:43,760
of my time going to the states

229
00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:45,440
yeah and now you mentioned aurora there

230
00:08:51,509 --> 00:08:47,600
and it's still to this day is this

231
00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:51,519
mythical idea of this program but

232
00:08:56,230 --> 00:08:54,160
did it exist and what did it represent

233
00:08:59,110 --> 00:08:56,240
some say it's it's a multitude of craft

234
00:09:01,269 --> 00:08:59,120
or planes under the aurora banner others

235
00:09:03,269 --> 00:09:01,279
say it's just one craft or or it doesn't

236
00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:03,279
exist at all so

237
00:09:07,030 --> 00:09:05,600
are you able to help us you know get to

238
00:09:08,949 --> 00:09:07,040
the bottom of that

239
00:09:11,829 --> 00:09:08,959
well i don't think we should be deceived

240
00:09:12,949 --> 00:09:11,839
by the name for a start you know aurora

241
00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:12,959
appeared

242
00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:16,000
in the public consciousness because it

243
00:09:22,630 --> 00:09:18,800
appeared in a budget a us budget a

244
00:09:23,910 --> 00:09:22,640
defense a dod pentagon budget book

245
00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:23,920
in

246
00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:34,640
item and no one could there was no clear

247
00:09:37,990 --> 00:09:36,160
description of what this thing was but

248
00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:38,000
it was called aurora

249
00:09:42,949 --> 00:09:38,880
uh

250
00:09:45,269 --> 00:09:42,959
working for jane's at the time chap

251
00:09:47,750 --> 00:09:45,279
called bill sweetman he was based in the

252
00:09:49,350 --> 00:09:47,760
states very well known aerospace writer

253
00:09:51,829 --> 00:09:49,360
but he'd made a

254
00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:51,839
career almost out of writing about

255
00:09:55,030 --> 00:09:53,680
these secret programs

256
00:09:58,070 --> 00:09:55,040
and

257
00:10:01,350 --> 00:09:58,080
bill uh had done an awful lot of digging

258
00:10:02,790 --> 00:10:01,360
um even before that earlier 1980s about

259
00:10:04,790 --> 00:10:02,800
emerging stealth technology and

260
00:10:07,430 --> 00:10:04,800
hypersonic technology

261
00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:07,440
and it was his view that aurora was a

262
00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:09,040
sort of blanket

263
00:10:13,750 --> 00:10:11,600
um a blanket name for a multitude of

264
00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:13,760
different programs but the one that we

265
00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:17,040
all focused on rightly was this

266
00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:20,000
hypersonic that which means a plane

267
00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:22,880
capable of exceeding mark five five

268
00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:24,480
times the speed of sound

269
00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:27,200
um a hypersonic replacement for the

270
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:29,920
sr-71 blackbird which

271
00:10:35,190 --> 00:10:31,600
uh retired

272
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:35,200
in 1990 if memory serves

273
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:36,480
and uh

274
00:10:40,710 --> 00:10:39,600
i i i believe that something was there i

275
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:40,720
think it

276
00:10:46,069 --> 00:10:43,839
was a what they call an operational uh

277
00:10:48,069 --> 00:10:46,079
deployable prototype so it wasn't didn't

278
00:10:51,190 --> 00:10:48,079
go into mass production but it didn't

279
00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:51,200
need to there a handful of them were all

280
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:53,680
that would be required and that it

281
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:55,760
filled a gap between

282
00:11:02,150 --> 00:10:59,440
the retirement of the sr-71

283
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,160
and the emergence of a new generation of

284
00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:04,800
spy satellites digital spy satellites

285
00:11:11,350 --> 00:11:08,320
that were able to provide real-time um

286
00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:11,360
surveillance of uh the soviet union

287
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:12,640
russia and

288
00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:15,600
other places of interest so for a narrow

289
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,760
window of time maybe two or three years

290
00:11:21,829 --> 00:11:19,360
this thing

291
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,839
was out there and i got as near an

292
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:23,600
admission as i'll probably ever get from

293
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:24,800
an official

294
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:29,760
when on uh his very last day in office

295
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:31,680
uh the head of research and development

296
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:34,160
for the u.s air force a guy called

297
00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:37,040
lieutenant general george mulner

298
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:38,000
um

299
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:41,120
uh granted me an interview request and

300
00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:42,640
we were uh

301
00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:44,959
the the topic of conversation was

302
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:47,440
black world aerospace programs which

303
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:48,640
would have been or should have been

304
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:50,160
under his purview

305
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:53,360
and he came as close i think as anyone

306
00:11:57,350 --> 00:11:54,959
has to saying

307
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:57,360
yeah we sort of probably developed or we

308
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:58,480
could have developed something i mean

309
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:00,320
i'm paraphrasing what he said

310
00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:03,360
but um you know it there was this sort

311
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:05,839
of intermediate gap between what was

312
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:06,880
retired

313
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:08,000
and these

314
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:10,079
news these this new generation of spy

315
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:12,639
satellites so i took that as a

316
00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:14,639
as a yes

317
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:15,920
excellent you see i've been looking

318
00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:18,880
recently into the calvin case from 1990

319
00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:21,680
which uh you know certain people in the

320
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:24,320
ufo community say that it's apparently

321
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:27,200
the the clearest ufo photo that's ever

322
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,399
existed

323
00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:29,680
and then there's a lot of other people

324
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:31,839
that believe it to be a secret black

325
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:34,480
project um so i just wondered what your

326
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:37,200
thoughts were on that case

327
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:39,839
uh i'm by no means an expert in it i

328
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:42,240
mean it i think it

329
00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:43,279
uh

330
00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:45,040
it did not come across my desk when i

331
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:46,480
was at james

332
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:48,320
but i've seen pictures of it obviously

333
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,440
um and i know that the con dyne report

334
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:53,279
has given it a certain

335
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:54,240
uh

336
00:12:57,670 --> 00:12:55,519
level of

337
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:57,680
respectability if you can call it that

338
00:13:03,670 --> 00:13:00,399
um i've looked at the pictures um it's

339
00:13:04,829 --> 00:13:03,680
the craft itself is very reminiscent

340
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:04,839
of

341
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:08,160
a uh an artist concept that was run in

342
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:09,680
aviation week

343
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:11,360
um in

344
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:14,880
uh i think it was the late 80s

345
00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:17,360
this thing looked like a diamond um and

346
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:18,399
was

347
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:22,880
week

348
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:25,279
very high flying and very fast

349
00:13:33,829 --> 00:13:28,800
so the bit that perplexes me and makes

350
00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:33,839
me doubt what i see in the calvin case

351
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:35,279
that this thing

352
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:37,360
looks identical to this

353
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:39,839
design that was uh flammed up in

354
00:13:43,590 --> 00:13:41,199
aviation week

355
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,600
but yet is flying at very low altitude

356
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:45,360
very slowly clearly because it's in the

357
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:46,720
company of a

358
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:50,160
harrier gr5 or gr7

359
00:13:54,150 --> 00:13:51,920
uh and

360
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:54,160
uh to my mind unless it's powered by

361
00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:57,040
something truly exotic it should be

362
00:14:02,069 --> 00:13:58,639
falling out of the sky

363
00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:02,079
so i you know for me i'm

364
00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:03,920
you know i'm always ready to be

365
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:06,240
persuaded otherwise

366
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,000
um but it looks a bit suspect to me

367
00:14:14,790 --> 00:14:12,000
that's i appreciate the answer but i

368
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:14,800
mean it's 32 years ago i mean if it was

369
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:16,160
you know something secretive like a

370
00:14:21,269 --> 00:14:19,040
black project is that a normal amount of

371
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:21,279
time or is it it sounds a long time for

372
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:24,240
things to remain you know in the dark

373
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:25,600
is that normal

374
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:28,240
uh yeah well increasingly i think it

375
00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:31,040
will be the case i mean the last

376
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,360
there was a round of

377
00:14:38,629 --> 00:14:35,680
black world aerospace

378
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:38,639
revelations um in the in the

379
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:41,600
in the late 80s in the early 90s um the

380
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:45,360
f-117 stealth fighter the b2 b2 was kind

381
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:46,560
of

382
00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:48,880
semi-black it was more dark gray than

383
00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:49,920
black

384
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:52,399
um but the f-117 stealth fighter came

385
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:53,120
out

386
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:56,000
of the shadows in 1988

387
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:57,600
and then there were some various other

388
00:15:02,629 --> 00:14:59,839
programs were revealed

389
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,639
in the 1990s since then there's been

390
00:15:06,069 --> 00:15:04,639
nothing and i think there's a very good

391
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,079
reason for that

392
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,959
because a lot of officials in the 1980s

393
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:10,240
put their

394
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:12,560
political reputations on the line when

395
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:16,160
they denied absolutely that aircraft and

396
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,600
projects like the stealth fighter

397
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:19,839
existed and then they were proven to

398
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:21,040
exist

399
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:23,040
and these official officials wriggled

400
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:25,040
out of it by saying well you didn't ask

401
00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:26,480
me the right question

402
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:28,000
you were asking me about a stealth

403
00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:29,279
fighter well that's not a stealth

404
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:31,440
fighter it's actually an attack aircraft

405
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:33,759
and it wasn't called the f-19 it's

406
00:15:41,110 --> 00:15:37,920
called the f-117 so we didn't lie um

407
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:41,120
and you know there it is well you know

408
00:15:45,189 --> 00:15:42,720
after that the reporter community

409
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,199
smartened up and they asked them

410
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:47,199
uh questions that gave these people no

411
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:49,600
room for wriggle room but as you know

412
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:53,199
vinnie um under special access program

413
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:55,600
rules and waived saps

414
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:56,959
you can

415
00:16:00,790 --> 00:15:59,199
lie till the cows come home in order to

416
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:00,800
protect the secret

417
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:03,600
so a bunch of bunch of other officials

418
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:05,839
since then have gone on record as saying

419
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,399
no there's nothing aurora doesn't exist

420
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:10,079
nothing like it exists

421
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:11,279
and

422
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:16,560
very long time to protect those

423
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:17,839
officials

424
00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:19,600
and that's why i don't think you're

425
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,759
going to see too much in the way of

426
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:24,000
revelation about

427
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,720
yeah

428
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:26,639
buried black programs

429
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:29,600
um until they absolutely have to i mean

430
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:32,079
it will be they'll be dragged kicking

431
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:33,279
and screaming

432
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:35,600
uh metaphorically into the light for

433
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,839
that very reason because people are

434
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:40,000
embarrassed you know if they threaten to

435
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:41,199
embarrass

436
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:44,079
political careers whether they are

437
00:16:47,749 --> 00:16:46,720
current or retired

438
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:47,759
yeah

439
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,360
now let's move on to your book the hunt

440
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:50,880
for zero point which i think was

441
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:53,360
published first in 2001

442
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:55,199
and a lot of focus was on the classified

443
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:57,680
world of anti-gravity technology with

444
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,160
focus on igor witkowski's claims that

445
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:02,160
the nazis developed some sort of

446
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:04,640
ufo-like device

447
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,400
so so what made you decide to go down

448
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:08,160
that route with this book and what did

449
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,120
you discover during the process

450
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:13,199
well it was i mean

451
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:16,400
eagle ripkoski and and some of the

452
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,959
german stuff um did get

453
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:20,880
some attention when the book came out

454
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:23,439
and and to a degree still does

455
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:25,679
but that's not why i set out to write

456
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:28,000
the book um in fact actually in the book

457
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:29,360
itself i say

458
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:31,679
that the nazi stuff is a really annoying

459
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:34,640
distraction but i can't i can't ignore

460
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:36,880
it because it keeps on popping up so i

461
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:39,120
have to address it and that was true it

462
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:40,960
was an annoying distraction

463
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,960
the real thing that i wanted to write

464
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:44,480
about

465
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:45,600
was

466
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:48,400
it stemmed from um

467
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:52,320
an article that came across my desk

468
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:53,200
saying

469
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:57,440
that uh the u.s aerospace industry had

470
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:59,600
looked at and had started to develop

471
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:01,360
anti-gravity technology in the late

472
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:03,840
1950s

473
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,720
but by the 1960s early 1960s there was

474
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:08,960
no reference anymore to this very public

475
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:12,080
discussion in the late 1950s by

476
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,600
very reputable aerospace companies that

477
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,840
some of which were still and still are

478
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:20,160
household names you know lockheed

479
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:23,919
um boeing i think was in there convair

480
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:27,360
you know well-known well-known names so

481
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:29,919
i think to begin with i think god this

482
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,799
is

483
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:31,679
really

484
00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:33,840
uh hokey and i'm sure there's nothing in

485
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:34,640
it

486
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:37,120
but i made a few calls and i called a

487
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:38,559
few people i knew

488
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:39,520
in

489
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:43,280
look

490
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:45,760
this is sort of crazy uh you know

491
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:48,559
it's a slow month i'm just running a few

492
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:50,720
checks but this article came across my

493
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,400
desk it's a contemporary article from

494
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:54,320
1956.

495
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,640
could you could you check it out for me

496
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:58,799
you know and i i had

497
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:00,640
sources and contacts and actually it was

498
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:03,120
a very low level uh approach i made

499
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:04,720
through the mostly through the public

500
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:07,039
affairs organizations these companies

501
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,559
and it wasn't until one of them came

502
00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:10,720
back to me and said actually we'd really

503
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,280
rather you didn't dig into this

504
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,160
wow that thought well okay um

505
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,960
uh now if i wasn't before but now i am

506
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:20,720
thanks very much and actually from then

507
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:24,240
on that's the theme of the book was i

508
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:26,160
want to go on a

509
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:29,360
i'm going to go on a journey to find out

510
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:32,080
uh what i can find out about what i deem

511
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:32,960
to be

512
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:35,039
the most secret thing i could conceive

513
00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:36,080
of

514
00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:37,039
in

515
00:19:42,310 --> 00:19:40,080
the aerospace and defense world and i'm

516
00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:42,320
doing that because through this job at

517
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,559
jane's defense weekly which was like it

518
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:46,640
was like my passport

519
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:49,039
into the world of

520
00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:50,559
the deeply respectable world of

521
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:52,640
aerospace and defense there were very

522
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,240
few i don't think there were any doors

523
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:56,480
that were closed to me i could interview

524
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,480
um you know

525
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:00,400
senior members of the pentagon i could

526
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:02,640
interview senior members of the uk mod i

527
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:05,039
could interview government ministers

528
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:07,280
so why don't i just use this opportunity

529
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:08,640
because i don't think i'm going to be in

530
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:11,679
the job forever um to just ask questions

531
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:15,200
about this really taboo this is 25 years

532
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:17,120
ago so

533
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:18,720
this subject where we're all talking

534
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:21,520
about now you couldn't breathe this in

535
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:23,919
polite company 25 years ago

536
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:27,280
for fear of being you know uh

537
00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:28,559
carted off

538
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:30,000
so uh

539
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:32,159
so i kept these questions very low-key

540
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:34,559
but i i sort of jotted it all down and i

541
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:36,240
just said to myself however long it

542
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:38,000
takes um

543
00:20:41,110 --> 00:20:39,360
let's see where it goes i wasn't

544
00:20:42,549 --> 00:20:41,120
intending to write a book even but after

545
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:42,559
about

546
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:43,679
seven or eight years i thought god

547
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:45,600
actually this is quite interesting this

548
00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:47,440
journey it's taken me into some very

549
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:48,880
interesting areas it's taken me into

550
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:51,039
places parts of nasa i didn't know

551
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:52,159
existed

552
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:54,559
parts of you know the skunk works i

553
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:55,600
didn't

554
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:56,720
know about

555
00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:57,679
um

556
00:21:02,230 --> 00:20:58,559
and

557
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:02,240
there was this as i said this rather

558
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:05,280
annoying persistent sort of nazi legend

559
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:07,280
that kept on popping up so i thought

560
00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:08,559
well i've got to go and deal with that

561
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:09,840
as well

562
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:12,480
and but that it was interesting because

563
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,640
it it opened up the world of an

564
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,039
individual called

565
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:19,440
ss general hans kamler who was in charge

566
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:20,480
of all

567
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:22,559
nazi germany's secret research programs

568
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:24,559
at the end of the war and at the time i

569
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:25,919
was looking into

570
00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:28,480
kamla's career which was

571
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,280
exotic weird unpleasant

572
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:33,679
and uh extraordinary

573
00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:34,880
um

574
00:21:40,149 --> 00:21:36,559
there were many conflicting accounts of

575
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,159
his death and a bit like those um

576
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:42,960
you know conflicting accounts of of

577
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,200
anti-gravity stories in the late 1950s

578
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:47,440
where you've got those

579
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:48,960
where you've got that level of sort of

580
00:21:51,909 --> 00:21:50,559
pushback you think well actually there's

581
00:21:53,669 --> 00:21:51,919
something here

582
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:53,679
so what did happen to hans campbell

583
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:55,039
where did he go

584
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:57,280
did he do a deal with the americans did

585
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,360
he do a deal with the russians

586
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:02,000
so it led me down that rabbit hole and

587
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:05,280
along the way i i met eagle vitkovsky

588
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:06,559
and

589
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:08,720
came across the story of the nazi bell

590
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:11,280
and you know

591
00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:13,360
so what what is deglocker in your

592
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,799
opinion

593
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,720
that we hear that it's like a ufo and

594
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:18,480
then oh you know they've got they fly it

595
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,960
down to antarctica and all this yeah

596
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,720
it's taken on a life of its own i mean

597
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:24,159
it's amazing

598
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,120
that story has really

599
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:29,360
burgeoned um

600
00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:30,159
and

601
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:32,640
you know uh though for me in the hunt

602
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:34,799
for zero point i say look

603
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:35,840
um

604
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:37,520
this place where the

605
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:38,880
bell

606
00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:40,159
and i think there was something there

607
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:42,400
there was a program there was something

608
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:45,600
um happening in this location

609
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:47,600
which was in southern poland

610
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:49,280
near uh

611
00:22:55,909 --> 00:22:52,559
the the city of breslau um

612
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:55,919
as it was in german days uh and

613
00:22:59,830 --> 00:22:57,120
uh

614
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:59,840
but the the site itself which was an ss

615
00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:00,880
run

616
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:03,120
um secret weapon site

617
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:06,159
uh in the middle of it is this thing

618
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,919
that people have called the henge you

619
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:09,440
know i think i may have referred to it

620
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:12,080
such a month for zero points

621
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:13,840
but i say you know this

622
00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:15,520
construction

623
00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:18,159
looks awfully like the base of a of a

624
00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:20,480
cooling tower it's not doesn't look like

625
00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:22,240
an anti-gravity it could be an

626
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:24,559
anti-gravity test rig i suppose and

627
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:26,559
that's what eagle vickovsky

628
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:29,280
conjectured it was i said but it given

629
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:30,880
this place is a very

630
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:33,679
secret site it unquestionably has links

631
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:34,640
to

632
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,880
germany's secret

633
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:38,480
nuclear programme

634
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:40,400
at the end of the second world war you

635
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:43,440
know it is either something truly exotic

636
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:46,159
along igor's lines

637
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:47,520
or it is

638
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:50,320
i think more likely to be part of

639
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:52,480
germany's nuclear program

640
00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:55,760
you know to do with uh um the separation

641
00:23:59,909 --> 00:23:57,919
of of nuclear isotopes

642
00:24:02,070 --> 00:23:59,919
for a weapons program

643
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:02,080
the as i said that henge thing looks

644
00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:03,919
like the base of a cooling tower you get

645
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:06,880
cooling towers all over nuclear sites

646
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:08,320
and

647
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,320
you know the jury was kind of slightly

648
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,480
out when i wrote the book 20 years ago

649
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:14,720
i'm absolutely convinced it was to do

650
00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:16,480
with their nuclear program today i don't

651
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:18,799
think it has anything sadly nothing to

652
00:24:20,789 --> 00:24:19,840
do with

653
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:20,799
uh

654
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:26,080
i i am in in total agreement with you on

655
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:27,440
there you know i i have these

656
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:28,960
conversations with a lot of different

657
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:31,120
friends and colleagues and especially uh

658
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,880
graeme rendell who wrote the recent foo

659
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:35,120
fighters book and he tackles this the

660
00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:37,120
the germany aspect of things in that in

661
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:39,679
quite yeah in a lot of depths

662
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:41,120
and there's just there's just nothing

663
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:43,039
there there's just no evidence it's it's

664
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:45,200
hearsay and stories and

665
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,880
yeah it's very difficult

666
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:48,240
from that point of view because there is

667
00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:49,919
a lot of

668
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:52,240
sort of circumstantial evidence you know

669
00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:54,159
there are germans who've come out of the

670
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:56,320
woodwork who said i worked on a sorcerer

671
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,480
program during the second world war

672
00:25:01,909 --> 00:25:00,480
but there is absolutely no well as

673
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:01,919
you've just said vinnie there's no

674
00:25:05,909 --> 00:25:03,200
smoking gun

675
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:05,919
which is it's really it's strange but

676
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:06,880
you know

677
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:09,760
i i try to follow evidence and

678
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:12,799
see where that evidence takes me and and

679
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:14,880
as i said in the hunt it took me

680
00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:16,640
everywhere and nowhere

681
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:18,159
when i was doing the uh the

682
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:19,760
investigation but

683
00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:21,600
nothing that led to a german disc

684
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:23,120
program

685
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:26,960
anything like that

686
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:27,840
yeah

687
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:30,000
so during your time looking more into

688
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:32,159
the ufo side of things i'd be interested

689
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,080
to get your thoughts on the the roswell

690
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,000
incident you know do you believe that it

691
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:38,320
could well be an object of non-human

692
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:40,559
origin or do you lean more towards the

693
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:42,480
sort of prosaic project mogul you know

694
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:44,960
some kind of balloon

695
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:47,760
i definitely don't lean towards a

696
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,039
prosaic project mogul type explanation i

697
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:52,880
remember i was at

698
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:55,679
jane's defense weekly when the air force

699
00:25:59,830 --> 00:25:57,679
produced its uh

700
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:59,840
i think it was called something really

701
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:01,919
kind of uh presumptuous like you know

702
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:05,120
the final report on roswell um and i

703
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:07,760
think when was that that was probably

704
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,720
early 90s maybe um

705
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:13,200
and uh it was clear they were covering

706
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:14,960
something up i mean it was i didn't know

707
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:16,159
what they were covering up but it was

708
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,440
very clear they were covering something

709
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:19,440
up and of course again you know as we've

710
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,159
touched on a number of times already in

711
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:24,720
just a few you know 20 minutes or so

712
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:25,760
um

713
00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:29,039
where you get that level of disagreement

714
00:26:33,269 --> 00:26:30,400
contradiction

715
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:33,279
uh pushback from officialdom even though

716
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:35,360
officialdom itself might not know what's

717
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:37,760
going on there's something there you

718
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:40,240
know that that denotes

719
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,799
there is something to look at

720
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:44,640
um i i never spent any time

721
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:47,200
investigating roswell because

722
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:48,960
hundreds of dozens if not hundreds of

723
00:26:52,870 --> 00:26:51,279
people have and you know i was always

724
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,880
interested to read what they came up

725
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,840
with

726
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:55,360
i i i

727
00:26:59,029 --> 00:26:56,880
unquestionably something very strange

728
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:59,039
happened something very secret happened

729
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:00,480
um

730
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:03,840
a crash disk perhaps i mean i inclined

731
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:06,240
more towards that than i than i do in a

732
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:09,600
prosaic explanation certainly um

733
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:10,400
and

734
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:11,440
there is

735
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,480
i i you know firmly believe again

736
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:16,640
you know from from my own

737
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:19,039
journalistic career that where there's

738
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:21,520
smoke there's often fire or there is

739
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:23,440
usually there is all there is always

740
00:27:26,149 --> 00:27:25,279
fire um

741
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:26,159
and

742
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:28,559
in roswell's case i've no doubt that

743
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:31,039
something very very unusual and secret

744
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,080
happened

745
00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:34,640
um i just don't know what that thing

746
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:36,159
what that

747
00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:41,039
now we often hear the term crash

748
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:42,559
retrieval especially more recently

749
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:45,039
banded about when it comes to ufos but

750
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:46,399
do you believe that possibly the us

751
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:48,799
government or a private entity such as

752
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:51,039
your lockheed skunk works and that they

753
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:52,559
could have ufo wreckage in their

754
00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:54,640
possession

755
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:57,440
i didn't until recently um

756
00:28:02,389 --> 00:27:59,039
i uh

757
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:02,399
i i just felt that again i've always

758
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:05,440
tried to follow things that i can pin

759
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:06,240
down

760
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:08,480
sure and i like to think that most of

761
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:09,760
the things

762
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:11,520
almost everything i think in the hunt

763
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:14,720
for zero point was sort of pinnable

764
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:17,440
data pinnable evidence and where it's

765
00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:18,240
not

766
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:22,480
you know or i don't know

767
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:24,080
um

768
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:26,159
so in uh

769
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,960
in the case of crash retrievals

770
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:31,279
again i i've never investigated them

771
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:32,880
i've never looked

772
00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:36,720
but you know doing what i do people have

773
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:38,720
again you know they've come out of the

774
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:40,559
shadows and they've said

775
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:42,480
people who should know or have spoken to

776
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:44,720
people who should know and they have

777
00:28:47,669 --> 00:28:45,760
said

778
00:28:49,510 --> 00:28:47,679
we think that

779
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:49,520
there is a pretty strong case for saying

780
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:53,279
that they have crashed to earth um again

781
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:56,399
whose they are we don't know but i i

782
00:29:01,430 --> 00:29:00,000
i don't uh align to the view that again

783
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:01,440
that there's a sort of prosaic

784
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:02,640
explanation

785
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:04,000
um

786
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:06,480
you know some have conjectured that you

787
00:29:12,389 --> 00:29:10,080
know top secret a top secret soviet

788
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:12,399
craft crashed in the new mexico desert

789
00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:14,080
in 1947

790
00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:16,480
that is just impossible you know given

791
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:17,200
the

792
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:21,919
so if it wasn't

793
00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:24,320
you know what the pentagon likes to call

794
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:26,799
adversary tech at the moment

795
00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:28,159
um

796
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,600
again i think the the

797
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:35,360
what is it what is interesting is what

798
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:37,600
has flipped in the last

799
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:39,279
five years um

800
00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:42,080
since the new york times's uh

801
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:44,559
groundbreaking story on

802
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:45,760
uh

803
00:29:55,029 --> 00:29:52,399
sightings and

804
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:55,039
the revelations about the atip

805
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:56,960
program within the pentagon tasked with

806
00:30:02,070 --> 00:29:58,960
looking at ufos you know actually since

807
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:02,080
then everything has changed um

808
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:03,039
what

809
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,520
was

810
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:09,200
what couldn't be discussed in polite

811
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:12,320
company is now discussed in congress and

812
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:14,960
in unclassified versions of reports to

813
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:16,159
congress

814
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:17,440
um

815
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:20,080
the the the the the more tenuous

816
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:22,480
position i think these days is the

817
00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:25,039
debunker's position it just doesn't look

818
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:26,320
credible anymore it just sounds

819
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:28,720
ridiculous in fact because the the

820
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:30,480
weight of evidence says

821
00:30:36,710 --> 00:30:32,080
no there is something

822
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:36,720
um exotic in our airspace and

823
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:40,080
it whilst we don't know what it is yet

824
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:43,039
it defies all of those logical rational

825
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:44,880
explanations that

826
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:45,760
um

827
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:49,440
debunkers like to say you know is is the

828
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:50,640
more likely

829
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:54,799
you know birds balloons

830
00:31:00,389 --> 00:30:56,159
um

831
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:00,399
uh swamp gas and adversary tech you know

832
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:03,760
some of it is that stuff but you know

833
00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:05,279
another thing i

834
00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:07,919
like to say is

835
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:08,880
um

836
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:11,200
it's very easy to debunk one point of

837
00:31:15,909 --> 00:31:13,360
evidence a single data point

838
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:15,919
but actually what you have to do

839
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,480
uh is if you want to be credible is you

840
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,039
need to debunk the whole lot

841
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:23,279
and there's just too much

842
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,200
evidence these days

843
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:28,240
that's out there to say that this is

844
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:29,360
uh

845
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:34,080
a phenomenon that is prosaic dull and

846
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:35,039
you know we shouldn't be paying

847
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:36,880
attention to it's quite the reverse of

848
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:39,200
those things as congress is now telling

849
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:41,760
us you know well congressional

850
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:45,120
uh uh panelists who grill defense

851
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,799
officials are telling us

852
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:49,440
um those old tropes are no longer

853
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:51,279
acceptable you've got to you've got to

854
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:52,720
do better than that

855
00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:54,880
yeah indeed i'd love to get your take on

856
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:56,559
the a lot of the cases that we've heard

857
00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,440
in the last few years are relating to

858
00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:01,279
and i hate the word when it's associated

859
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:03,039
but drones and these objects that are

860
00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:04,480
hovering over these

861
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:07,360
uh navy fleets for for really long

862
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:09,039
periods of time more than any kind of

863
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:11,279
commercial drone could possibly do but

864
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,519
you know with the history of uavs um you

865
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,600
know like the rq-180

866
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:17,279
which is not really a drone same with

867
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:19,760
the x-47b these unmanned

868
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,760
vehicles could these be like a next

869
00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:23,279
generation

870
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:25,760
unmanned aerial platform that they're

871
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:28,080
testing or do you still lean towards it

872
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:29,519
being more

873
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:32,480
more unexplained than that

874
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:36,240
well i i guess i fall back on

875
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:37,360
the

876
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:47,679
programs

877
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:48,480
um

878
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:49,760
and

879
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:51,600
you know there would be sightings of

880
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:53,120
something

881
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:54,880
in the skies you know over the desert

882
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:56,720
southwest of america

883
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:58,240
um and

884
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:59,840
people would conjecture you know is it a

885
00:33:01,909 --> 00:33:00,880
stealth

886
00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:01,919
uh

887
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:03,360
platform that's being tested that's

888
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:06,480
secret or is it something else well yeah

889
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:08,320
quite often these things were cited over

890
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:09,360
cities

891
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:12,399
you know the phoenix lights or

892
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:13,440
you know

893
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:16,240
some other quite dense population center

894
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,080
quite often people would report them

895
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:20,720
over las vegas for example

896
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:23,279
it is insanity to test a top-secret

897
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:26,240
aerospace vehicle over a city

898
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:27,519
um

899
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:30,399
it it it would be insanity as well

900
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:33,360
to test a top secret

901
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:34,480
drone

902
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:39,360
um against your own side uh

903
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:41,519
i suppose you know there's probably a

904
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:43,679
smidge of a possibility you might want

905
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:46,080
to do that to get some kind of reaction

906
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,399
or test the reaction time

907
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:51,039
of your you know of kind of friendly

908
00:33:54,549 --> 00:33:52,720
adversary if you're the air force and

909
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:54,559
you're putting this thing up against the

910
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:57,120
navy but it's extremely unlikely in my

911
00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:58,799
view and it's

912
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:01,519
unlikely to vanishing

913
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:05,519
um in my view that you would for example

914
00:34:09,109 --> 00:34:07,919
fly a top secret drone over a nuclear

915
00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:09,119
installation

916
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:11,200
who's going to do that i mean that's a

917
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:14,240
it's going to it risks being shot down

918
00:34:18,829 --> 00:34:16,879
or disabled in some way and then the

919
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:18,839
tech is exposed

920
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:21,280
um so

921
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:25,119
again you know whilst some of these

922
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,599
instances may point to

923
00:34:30,950 --> 00:34:29,440
drone technology

924
00:34:33,430 --> 00:34:30,960
again if you look at the body of the

925
00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:33,440
evidence the all of it

926
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:34,960
what you're getting back

927
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:36,079
from that

928
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:39,520
is you know a massive um

929
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:41,440
question mark it it in fact more than

930
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:43,359
that it's

931
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:45,280
everything i know

932
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:47,440
from a career in

933
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:49,280
aerospace

934
00:34:54,790 --> 00:34:52,879
technology investigation and evaluation

935
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:54,800
does not stack up against what people

936
00:34:58,950 --> 00:34:56,960
are reporting so therefore i have to

937
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:58,960
think again

938
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:00,960
prosaic explanations

939
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:04,720
don't cut it and you know thank god for

940
00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:05,839
um

941
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:08,320
the new york times again and it's

942
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:12,560
it's december 2017 article which really

943
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:13,680
enabled

944
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:17,280
everyone to talk about this stuff

945
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:18,800
um

946
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:21,920
in in sort of you know open source

947
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:22,720
uh

948
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:27,680
it's very liberating and it needs to be

949
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:31,760
because you know if it's if commentators

950
00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:33,680
are having difficulty think what it's

951
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:37,440
like for a a pilot you know

952
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:39,119
a military pilot who comes up against

953
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,560
one of these things who just can't talk

954
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,480
about it because it's taboo

955
00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:44,400
yeah absolutely now i recently had a

956
00:35:48,470 --> 00:35:46,240
conversation an interview with david

957
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:48,480
marlow on black triangles

958
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:51,440
and he brought up the the tr-3b which

959
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:53,359
it's kind of the bane of my life i

960
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:55,280
forever hear that phrase banded about

961
00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:57,680
but when anything triangular is talked

962
00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:00,400
about in in ufology um but it you know

963
00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:01,760
he mentioned that it all comes down to

964
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,800
the word of one man edgar fouche did did

965
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:06,960
that name or phrase tr3b ever come

966
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,960
across you know did you ever come across

967
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,079
it in your

968
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:12,480
your work over the years within you know

969
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:16,800
aerospace or or military conversations

970
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:20,000
yeah it it did um

971
00:36:23,829 --> 00:36:20,960
uh

972
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:23,839
but in a wholly different context

973
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:26,800
the very first time i heard it

974
00:36:31,589 --> 00:36:28,160
it was

975
00:36:33,990 --> 00:36:31,599
uh a a a

976
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:34,000
designation that was pinned on

977
00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:37,839
a putative if i recall rightly

978
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:39,359
reconnaissance

979
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:40,880
um

980
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:43,520
sort of sibling of the f-117

981
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:45,359
that there was that

982
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:46,480
and i think again it might have been

983
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:48,480
aviation week or

984
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:49,920
um

985
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,400
or a a very diligent investigator down

986
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,720
in texas called steve douglas it might

987
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:55,920
have been him

988
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:58,320
who had photographed uh

989
00:37:10,069 --> 00:36:59,119
a

990
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:10,079
he or

991
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:12,079
someone like him

992
00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:14,560
dubbed the tr-3b

993
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:15,440
um

994
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,160
since then a bit like aurora

995
00:37:23,430 --> 00:37:20,880
i feel it's very for me it's been very

996
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:23,440
unwise to get hung up on

997
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:24,480
titles

998
00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:26,160
because they they

999
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:27,920
take on a life of their own

1000
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,680
and they come to

1001
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:31,040
describe

1002
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:32,079
um

1003
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:33,760
in the end anything you want it to

1004
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:35,760
describe you know so

1005
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:37,599
if you're an anti-gravity proponent oh

1006
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:40,640
it's a tr-3b and it was built by humans

1007
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:41,520
um

1008
00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:43,760
if you're a stealth

1009
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:46,000
aircraft proponent oh it's a stealthy

1010
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:48,400
aircraft platform called the tr-3b

1011
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:49,520
um

1012
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:52,800
so i i tend to avoid those

1013
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:55,760
the the the designations themselves

1014
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:57,359
um

1015
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:58,720
when it comes to

1016
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:00,240
exotic

1017
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:02,560
technology propulsion technology for

1018
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,160
terrestrially

1019
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:06,480
designed aircraft again i'm i'm i'm back

1020
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:08,480
where i was at the end of the hunt for

1021
00:38:12,069 --> 00:38:09,920
zero point and i

1022
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:12,079
don't want to you know if anyone's still

1023
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:15,359
attempting to read it i don't want to

1024
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,599
throw in too many spoilers but you know

1025
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:19,920
i do say at the end of the hunt

1026
00:38:23,349 --> 00:38:21,280
um

1027
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:23,359
which is which is this

1028
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:25,119
more than anything else it's it's my

1029
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:26,320
journey

1030
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:28,000
through

1031
00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:30,720
a sort of a dark and unfamiliar

1032
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:32,160
landscape which is the world of

1033
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,320
classified aerospace development insofar

1034
00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:36,720
as i was able to

1035
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:38,480
navigate it

1036
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:41,359
and at the end of the journey i go there

1037
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:43,280
there's no smoking gun you know i wish

1038
00:38:48,630 --> 00:38:45,920
there were i wish i could say i found

1039
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:48,640
the anti-gravity program that's buried

1040
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:50,720
10 levels below the lockheed skunk works

1041
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:51,920
but i didn't

1042
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,160
and i think there's some very powerful

1043
00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:56,480
and again it's detailed in the book very

1044
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:57,599
powerful

1045
00:39:02,710 --> 00:38:59,440
circumstantial evidence

1046
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:02,720
to show that a program could exist but

1047
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:05,119
did i find it no

1048
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:06,130
fun

1049
00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:08,320
[Music]

1050
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:10,480
now just sticking with anti-gravity um

1051
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:12,160
one name that i keep coming across and

1052
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,760
there's very little information i can

1053
00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:15,440
find is ning lee

1054
00:39:18,310 --> 00:39:16,720
is there anything you can tell us about

1055
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:18,320
her work because it all just seems very

1056
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:19,920
mysterious because it sounds like she

1057
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:21,680
was at the forefront of

1058
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:25,200
you know anti-gravity studies at least

1059
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:28,720
yeah i'm mettingly um so

1060
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:29,920
uh

1061
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:37,200
yeah she's in the hunt for zero point um

1062
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:39,440
but she was very uh very white world

1063
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:41,599
then that she was working

1064
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:43,280
at the

1065
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:45,680
university of alabama in huntsville i

1066
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:47,599
think

1067
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,960
close to

1068
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:50,560
obviously huntsville as a center of

1069
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:53,280
rocket technology

1070
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:54,320
and

1071
00:40:14,390 --> 00:39:55,520
i

1072
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:14,400
these

1073
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:17,359
devices which appeared to show a

1074
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:22,319
reduction in gravitational pull uh force

1075
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:24,800
in the the column of air

1076
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:28,160
um or the volume of of air above the

1077
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:30,160
rotating superconductor

1078
00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:31,760
um and that

1079
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,480
uh that was of the on the order of sort

1080
00:40:37,829 --> 00:40:36,720
of three to five percent which you know

1081
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:37,839
actually when you think about it is

1082
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:39,760
quite a noticeable weight drop

1083
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:42,000
um lots of people tried to replicate

1084
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,680
these experiments that

1085
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:45,839
sh that that uh

1086
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:48,400
there was a guy in russia called yevgeny

1087
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:50,800
pogletnov who had done similar

1088
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:53,200
experiments no one could replicate them

1089
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,640
and that was the issue you know if you

1090
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:57,359
can't if you can't replicate

1091
00:41:00,150 --> 00:40:58,800
someone else's experiment in a

1092
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:00,160
laboratory

1093
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,920
it doesn't exist you know according to

1094
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:03,280
science

1095
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:04,720
anyway ningli was amongst that

1096
00:41:09,109 --> 00:41:08,160
generation we're talking mid 1990s

1097
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:09,119
um

1098
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:10,720
she then got a

1099
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:11,520
uh

1100
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:14,560
i think in 2001 or two

1101
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,720
she got a contract from

1102
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:18,720
the um

1103
00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:19,920
dod

1104
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:22,560
redstone arsenal in alabama

1105
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:25,680
um for uh it was

1106
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:27,920
about a half a million dollars i think

1107
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:29,280
and

1108
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:31,839
no one she didn't say what it was for

1109
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:34,079
but by that stage people were beginning

1110
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:35,520
to get very interested in something

1111
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,960
called an impulse gravity wave generator

1112
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,319
this was

1113
00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:42,400
not the weight reduction thing that you

1114
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:44,480
saw above the superconductor

1115
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:46,640
what podcletnov and others were saying

1116
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,880
was if you shot a jolt of a very

1117
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:50,880
powerful jolt of electricity

1118
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:52,160
through that

1119
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:55,520
um distorted gravitational field

1120
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:59,119
you would get an anti-gravitational

1121
00:42:03,309 --> 00:42:00,319
jolt

1122
00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:03,319
a beam uh a sort of pulse of

1123
00:42:07,190 --> 00:42:05,599
anti-gravitational force which could be

1124
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:07,200
used as a weapon

1125
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:08,960
uh and

1126
00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:11,280
it it had i mean

1127
00:42:14,230 --> 00:42:12,880
todd kleckman i interviewed paul klepnov

1128
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:14,240
as well

1129
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:16,640
and he was talking about experiments

1130
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:19,200
he'd done in russia which was knocking

1131
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,800
stuff over at a distance of about a

1132
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:22,960
kilometer you scale that up and you get

1133
00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:24,800
an anti-satellite weapon you could knock

1134
00:42:30,390 --> 00:42:27,920
a satellite out of its orbit so you know

1135
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:30,400
conjecture was that why the

1136
00:42:34,470 --> 00:42:33,200
redstone arsenal gave ningli a half a

1137
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:34,480
million dollar

1138
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,200
uh contract was to investigate this

1139
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:39,680
technology as an anti-satellite weapon

1140
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:41,760
because that was sort of what they

1141
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:43,760
what redstone arsenal would be charged

1142
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:44,560
with

1143
00:42:50,309 --> 00:42:46,480
um

1144
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:50,319
i met her in 2003 at a conference

1145
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:52,880
called this it's achieved some notoriety

1146
00:42:56,069 --> 00:42:54,480
since called the i think it was called

1147
00:42:56,829 --> 00:42:56,079
the mitre

1148
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,839
uh

1149
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:59,440
corporation gravity high frequency

1150
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:01,680
gravity wave conference in mclean

1151
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:04,079
virginia spooksville just outside

1152
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:05,359
washington

1153
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:07,280
and ningli was there she in fact she

1154
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:08,240
chaired

1155
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,599
the conference

1156
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:11,440
and i interviewed her

1157
00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:13,520
and i asked her about her work and she

1158
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,240
said my work is very real

1159
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:18,480
i'm on the verge of a breakthrough and

1160
00:43:23,910 --> 00:43:21,359
i'm going to do it for all mankind

1161
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:23,920
and then she disappeared

1162
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:25,200
yep so

1163
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:28,000
what happened to her no idea but well of

1164
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:29,040
course we know what happened to her

1165
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:31,040
sadly in the end i think she

1166
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:31,839
uh

1167
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:33,200
she she

1168
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:36,160
she next cropped up last year uh in a

1169
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:39,520
obituary notice in

1170
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:41,440
huntsville newspaper saying that she

1171
00:43:45,270 --> 00:43:43,839
died so but what happened in the

1172
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:45,280
intervening

1173
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:48,480
20 years almost no one really knows

1174
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,760
yeah there's a lot of theories i always

1175
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:51,359
hear people say oh she was

1176
00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:53,520
ordered back to china or something and

1177
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:55,760
and you know kept under the lock and key

1178
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:57,920
or her work was suppressed and i mean

1179
00:44:01,349 --> 00:43:59,520
there's just no evidence for that so of

1180
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:01,359
course it's it remains a mystery but no

1181
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,200
i appreciate you you're discussing her

1182
00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:04,960
because like i said i really struggle to

1183
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:07,839
find much information on her so yeah

1184
00:44:13,109 --> 00:44:09,920
that's really interesting there's there

1185
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:13,119
isn't much no way yeah there you go

1186
00:44:17,589 --> 00:44:15,920
now let's jump completely into

1187
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:17,599
a different area this is the the

1188
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:19,680
consciousness studies so last year you

1189
00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:22,000
entered the bix essay contest ran by

1190
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:24,079
robert bigelow with your paper what is

1191
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:25,920
the best available evidence for the

1192
00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:28,160
survival of human consciousness after

1193
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,560
permanent bodily death so

1194
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:32,079
can you give us a bit of a mini

1195
00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:33,839
breakdown of what the article entails in

1196
00:44:37,510 --> 00:44:35,359
your theories

1197
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:37,520
yeah um

1198
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:42,240
so just a bit of background um to that

1199
00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:43,680
i i've become interested in

1200
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:45,359
consciousness

1201
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:46,640
um

1202
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:48,000
because

1203
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:52,000
uh my wife had an unusual experience

1204
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,599
when her mother died which was

1205
00:45:00,950 --> 00:44:57,359
some of the attributes that near-death

1206
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:00,960
experiences report which is a sense of

1207
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:03,760
being transported into a

1208
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:06,400
a place that you know where seemingly

1209
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:08,000
sort of time

1210
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,680
time stops

1211
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:12,240
there's this great sense of connection

1212
00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:15,280
you know things you know it's it's it's

1213
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:16,400
a very

1214
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,920
weird sort of transcendent experience

1215
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,680
we have been married a long time she

1216
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:23,760
doesn't make things up when she told me

1217
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:25,359
this and it happened at the precise

1218
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:30,630
my curiosity was piqued obviously you

1219
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,160
know i and and i sort of

1220
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,680
wouldn't let it go because i wanted to

1221
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:37,680
know what this thing was and you know i

1222
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:39,520
did a bit of digging and one that just

1223
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,280
did a bit of googling and it told me

1224
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:42,720
there was this thing called you know a

1225
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:44,960
shared death experience such as the one

1226
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:46,560
i've described very like

1227
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:49,200
an nde a near-death experience

1228
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:50,319
um

1229
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:52,800
i i sort of did a bit of digging and

1230
00:45:55,750 --> 00:45:54,319
became intrigued enough about it

1231
00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:55,760
actually to write a

1232
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:57,680
uh a book about it but not a non-fiction

1233
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:58,800
book i wrote

1234
00:46:01,510 --> 00:46:00,319
a novel called the thriller called the

1235
00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:01,520
grid

1236
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,040
and the whole subject of consciousness

1237
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:06,079
formed the backdrop to the grid

1238
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:08,400
when i stopped writing the grid i was

1239
00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:09,760
still really interested in the subject

1240
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:11,599
of consciousness you know what is it

1241
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:14,480
that makes that gives us our sense of

1242
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:17,280
self what is it that gives us

1243
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:20,240
perceptual capabilities you know how are

1244
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,079
we able to map

1245
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:24,319
our reality how we are able to navigate

1246
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:26,160
our reality you know these are questions

1247
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:28,240
that don't have answers that yet they're

1248
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:30,319
huge science doesn't have an answer to

1249
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:31,200
this

1250
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:34,480
so um i think a really lucky break i got

1251
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:36,800
a grant a research grant that allowed me

1252
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:39,119
to research where i'd left off in the

1253
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,319
consciousness

1254
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:42,000
field and i was able to go off and do

1255
00:46:45,190 --> 00:46:43,760
this for about a year and a half

1256
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:45,200
dedicate myself to the study of

1257
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:46,400
consciousness

1258
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:47,760
and then

1259
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,440
weirdly um

1260
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:52,560
that uh grant funding ended

1261
00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:53,760
and i thought

1262
00:46:58,390 --> 00:46:55,280
well that was fun but what do i do with

1263
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:58,400
this research and then within a month or

1264
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,359
two

1265
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:02,160
uh robert bigelow you know known for his

1266
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:05,119
work in the ufo field and bass you know

1267
00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:06,640
bigelow

1268
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:09,359
aerospace advanced space

1269
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:10,400
studies

1270
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:12,079
and all the rest of it

1271
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:13,760
he popped up

1272
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:15,680
with this competition he launched a

1273
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:16,960
competition

1274
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:18,800
there was uh

1275
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:20,400
one point well at the time i think there

1276
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,920
was a million dollars or one and a half

1277
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:23,839
million dollars attached to it it grew

1278
00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:25,680
in the end to be a 1.8 million dollar

1279
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:27,599
prize fund and

1280
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:30,079
i i suddenly realized that you know the

1281
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:31,680
question you read out vinnie about the

1282
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:34,319
survival of consciousness

1283
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:36,559
uh after permanent bodily death i

1284
00:47:39,589 --> 00:47:37,359
thought

1285
00:47:41,670 --> 00:47:39,599
crikey i've i've actually investigated i

1286
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:41,680
mean i've researched this that is part

1287
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:43,920
of what i'd researched for

1288
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:46,640
this in this consciousness study so i

1289
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:49,280
thought oh well um i'll have a i'll have

1290
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:51,920
a crack at it and i didn't really didn't

1291
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:54,880
expect to get anywhere at all um i mean

1292
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:57,839
you had to pre-qualify to enter it

1293
00:48:01,910 --> 00:48:00,960
uh i think 1300 people or thereabouts

1294
00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:01,920
were

1295
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,640
accepted as sort of pre-qualified to to

1296
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:07,040
enter the contest um

1297
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:08,960
i've done some work with i don't know

1298
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:11,200
whether the name resonates but

1299
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:13,520
one of the remote viewers um was called

1300
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:15,599
ingo swan in fact he was one of the

1301
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:17,359
founders of the remote viewing program

1302
00:48:24,309 --> 00:48:21,359
yeah i i'd i'd known hingo um

1303
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:24,319
uh we i'd met him several times before

1304
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:25,680
he died

1305
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:26,559
and

1306
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:29,520
uh i laterally came to

1307
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,800
um

1308
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:33,119
be commissioned by his family

1309
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:36,480
to write a biography of him well

1310
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:38,480
the biography didn't happen but i ended

1311
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:40,160
up actually

1312
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:42,559
working with his archive finding a

1313
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:44,640
couple of undiscovered ingo manuscripts

1314
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:45,520
which

1315
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:47,680
the family then published but i helped

1316
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:49,760
to edit and put all of that together and

1317
00:48:54,309 --> 00:48:51,680
i was able to put that into my

1318
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:54,319
submission for the bix essay as

1319
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,040
probably the only sort of qualification

1320
00:49:01,270 --> 00:48:59,280
i had to enter this apart from the fact

1321
00:49:02,390 --> 00:49:01,280
i've done some research to enter this

1322
00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:02,400
this competition

1323
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:04,640
and as i say to my enormous surprise i

1324
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:07,680
found myself amongst the 29 winners

1325
00:49:10,150 --> 00:49:08,559
and

1326
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:10,160
uh

1327
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:12,800
ended up getting presented with a check

1328
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:13,680
at

1329
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:14,880
bigelow's

1330
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,400
aerospace facility in north las vegas in

1331
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:20,319
december last year

1332
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:21,839
amazing what was it like being inside

1333
00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:22,960
that building

1334
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:24,720
everyone always says i'd love to see

1335
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:27,760
inside but i mean i suppose it was

1336
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:30,559
a great feeling but nothing well it it

1337
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:33,119
was it was interesting because i mean

1338
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:36,000
on on one level it's like you know bear

1339
00:49:39,349 --> 00:49:37,440
in mind

1340
00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:39,359
i've probably toured a i know not a

1341
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:41,920
million aerospace facilities

1342
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,640
hundreds if not thousands of aerospace

1343
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:46,640
factories over the course of my 20-year

1344
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:48,800
career and one

1345
00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:51,520
looks very much like another so on the

1346
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:53,680
one hand i walk into this facility and

1347
00:49:56,309 --> 00:49:55,200
go oh this looks really familiar you

1348
00:49:57,990 --> 00:49:56,319
know

1349
00:49:58,790 --> 00:49:58,000
there's a habitable space module in

1350
00:50:03,030 --> 00:49:58,800
there

1351
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:03,040
it is a it is a regular

1352
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:05,599
modern aerospace facility but on the

1353
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:07,119
other hand you're pinching yourself and

1354
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:08,160
thinking

1355
00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:10,079
i know people who give their eye teeth

1356
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:13,359
to get into this place yeah um and

1357
00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:14,400
so from that point of view it was

1358
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:16,800
fascinating and uh

1359
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,680
uh

1360
00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:20,160
a very enjoyable

1361
00:50:25,829 --> 00:50:22,480
evening you know particularly rubbing

1362
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:25,839
shoulders with some of these other yeah

1363
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:28,640
very worthy winners who had phds and

1364
00:50:33,109 --> 00:50:31,440
md's and i i i am suffering from

1365
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:33,119
imposter syndrome i'm literally thinking

1366
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:35,440
what am i doing here but it was a great

1367
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:37,040
privilege to have won

1368
00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:39,440
it's opened up some other doors and it

1369
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:40,480
also

1370
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:43,280
you know gave me some insights into

1371
00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:45,119
the world of ufology as well actually

1372
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:46,319
because

1373
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:47,680
um

1374
00:50:52,150 --> 00:50:51,280
you know i haven't i hadn't pre-2017 as

1375
00:50:54,309 --> 00:50:52,160
i said

1376
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:54,319
and the new york times piece i'd not

1377
00:50:56,790 --> 00:50:55,280
spent

1378
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:56,800
a whole lot of time

1379
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:58,720
looking at ufos and i know that sounds

1380
00:51:02,710 --> 00:51:00,640
strange because a lot of people

1381
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,720
equate the hunt for zero point with a

1382
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:04,720
ufo book

1383
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:06,640
yeah i i

1384
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:09,280
i'd probably argue that toss and i'd say

1385
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:12,079
to me it's not it's it's it's the story

1386
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:14,960
of my hunt for exotic terrestrial

1387
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:17,440
technology um

1388
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:19,520
but on you know by some definitions that

1389
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:22,400
is a ufo book

1390
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:25,760
but along the way post 2017

1391
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:27,280
when the new york times came up with

1392
00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:29,119
that story i thought well actually you

1393
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:30,240
know

1394
00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:32,160
um this does

1395
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:34,000
deserve this

1396
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:35,839
phenomenon this subject really does

1397
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:37,440
deserve to be looked at

1398
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:38,480
and so

1399
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:40,079
you know and i'd done some reading

1400
00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:42,160
before that of you know

1401
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:44,559
books by jacques valley and others i'm a

1402
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:46,640
great admirer of vale's work i think he

1403
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:49,359
did some pioneering stuff

1404
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,720
and i thought

1405
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:52,160
you know what i mean i come from a nuts

1406
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:54,720
and bolts background that's that's my

1407
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:56,720
that's my was my beat

1408
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:58,640
sure i know

1409
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:00,319
so many people have gone down the nuts

1410
00:52:06,069 --> 00:52:04,079
and bolts road to try and decipher the

1411
00:52:07,829 --> 00:52:06,079
ufo enigma

1412
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:07,839
i thought you know what i'm i'm actually

1413
00:52:12,069 --> 00:52:10,640
i'm sort of i'm more in the valet camp

1414
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:12,079
i think there is a connection with

1415
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:13,839
consciousness i don't know what it is

1416
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:16,319
but let's start to have a look at it

1417
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:17,680
so

1418
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,440
you know in opening up the pure

1419
00:52:26,230 --> 00:52:22,079
consciousness research that i've been

1420
00:52:27,109 --> 00:52:26,240
doing it also gave me a sort of sideline

1421
00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:27,119
um

1422
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:28,400
uh you know

1423
00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:30,800
a sort of seat in the

1424
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:33,680
in in the sidelines of the theater on

1425
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:36,240
the on the sort of the ufo phenomenon as

1426
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:37,119
well

1427
00:52:42,309 --> 00:52:39,440
and that's been interesting because it's

1428
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:42,319
perhaps given me some insights

1429
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:43,599
into that world that i wouldn't

1430
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,040
otherwise have had

1431
00:52:51,109 --> 00:52:47,520
yeah and you recently became a rese

1432
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:51,119
research director for four big so

1433
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:52,640
what does that entail exactly any

1434
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:54,800
specific duties

1435
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:55,760
uh

1436
00:53:02,790 --> 00:52:59,359
it's early days at the moment to be

1437
00:53:05,670 --> 00:53:02,800
honest the the the formation of bix um i

1438
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:05,680
mean robert bigelow formed bix uh just

1439
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:09,520
prior to the contest uh so that was in

1440
00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:12,319
whenever we said it was uh last year

1441
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:13,359
um

1442
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:15,920
and then after that he wanted to use the

1443
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:18,160
essay as a platform for further research

1444
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:20,240
into into consciousness but particularly

1445
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:21,359
into the

1446
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:23,920
survival um aspect the survival of

1447
00:53:28,870 --> 00:53:26,400
survival or continuity of consciousness

1448
00:53:29,670 --> 00:53:28,880
after death um

1449
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:29,680
so

1450
00:53:31,589 --> 00:53:30,480
uh

1451
00:53:34,549 --> 00:53:31,599
i

1452
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:34,559
asked um

1453
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:35,839
i guess it was a couple of months ago

1454
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,480
whether i would like to be a

1455
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:40,880
a research director

1456
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:42,800
of the organization along with several

1457
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:43,839
other

1458
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:45,200
bix essays

1459
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:46,480
essay winners

1460
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:50,160
and um i said yeah i would i would like

1461
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:54,319
to be um it's this research is conducted

1462
00:54:01,349 --> 00:53:58,800
in a spirit of openness it is um

1463
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:01,359
tasks or its mission is to

1464
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:04,160
you know try to plumb the depths of

1465
00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:06,400
what possibly to us is the greatest

1466
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:08,720
mystery you know what happens to us when

1467
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:10,800
we die and

1468
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:13,760
to be a part of that uh it's it's it's

1469
00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:14,050
uh

1470
00:54:16,870 --> 00:54:15,280
[Music]

1471
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:16,880
no it's nothing like a full-time job at

1472
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:18,800
all it's a very part-time

1473
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:19,760
um

1474
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:21,839
job uh is

1475
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:22,800
um

1476
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:28,400
for me very uh rewarding insightful and

1477
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:30,880
a privilege so i'm i'm i'm enjoying so

1478
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:32,319
far i'm enjoying the work but we haven't

1479
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,240
got very far into it yet

1480
00:54:38,309 --> 00:54:36,079
well i mean i suppose i should say

1481
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,319
congratulations on the essay and on the

1482
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:40,000
new role but i really look forward to

1483
00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:41,520
seeing what does come

1484
00:54:44,470 --> 00:54:43,280
from this from these early days uh

1485
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:44,480
hopefully you know it'll be something

1486
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:45,440
that

1487
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:46,960
the public will be

1488
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,160
you know able to

1489
00:54:52,549 --> 00:54:50,000
to see when it when it's released so

1490
00:54:54,470 --> 00:54:52,559
yeah really exciting stuff uh well that

1491
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:54,480
that concludes my questions i do have

1492
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:57,680
one here which uh i'll put to you from

1493
00:55:02,870 --> 00:54:59,520
elena campbell asks thoughts on zero

1494
00:55:04,549 --> 00:55:02,880
point energy and pyramids

1495
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:04,559
well um

1496
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:07,520
i i don't i mean

1497
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,400
there are some weird sort of

1498
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:10,640
synchronicities in that question um i

1499
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:12,319
think i said at the top of the interview

1500
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:13,520
that i'd

1501
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,040
studied arabic and islamic studies at

1502
00:55:19,829 --> 00:55:17,520
university i actually have lived part of

1503
00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:19,839
my life in egypt and so i'm sort of used

1504
00:55:22,789 --> 00:55:21,359
to go and visit the pyramids a lot i'm

1505
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:22,799
very familiar with

1506
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:25,839
the giza site and you know other other

1507
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:28,240
um ancient egyptian sites

1508
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:32,240
i've never looked into that aspect of um

1509
00:55:36,950 --> 00:55:34,319
zero point energy or exotic energy i'm

1510
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:36,960
very aware that there are

1511
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:39,599
questions about you know what the

1512
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:43,920
pyramids are and whether they have um

1513
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:46,400
uh sort of you know hidden

1514
00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:49,680
facets to them to them which

1515
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:51,599
bestow sort of you know exotic

1516
00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:53,839
properties on

1517
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:57,280
uh uh objects um

1518
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,559
but i don't know anything about it so

1519
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:00,880
i'm gonna have to duck that one so thank

1520
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:02,480
you for the question but i wish i knew

1521
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:05,520
more about it um i don't i do know that

1522
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:07,440
uh my uh

1523
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:10,079
uh friend jay anderson has just been um

1524
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:13,280
to egypt and has looked uh he of project

1525
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:14,240
unity

1526
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:17,280
um and has looked uh with uh some other

1527
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:20,079
people i know at some of the more exotic

1528
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:23,119
aspects of the pyramids and egyptology

1529
00:56:26,549 --> 00:56:24,799
and uh i think he'd be a much better

1530
00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:26,559
person to ask than me

1531
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:28,319
fantastic thank you anyway and we've got

1532
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:30,880
one last question here who is conducting

1533
00:56:34,950 --> 00:56:32,960
the best current research on life after

1534
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,960
death

1535
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:36,880
well you know obviously

1536
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:38,720
i'd love to be able to report that bix

1537
00:56:42,069 --> 00:56:40,400
is but as i said

1538
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:42,079
uh that's you know the bigger bigelow

1539
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,680
institute but it's very early days for

1540
00:56:46,230 --> 00:56:45,359
the bigelow institute so they're just

1541
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:46,240
getting

1542
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:49,200
up and running on that very question um

1543
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:52,240
there are a great many um

1544
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:54,640
no there aren't a great many there are a

1545
00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:56,400
number of

1546
00:57:01,829 --> 00:56:59,440
academic institutions which uh and

1547
00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:01,839
institutes that do look at that subject

1548
00:57:08,309 --> 00:57:04,880
um the um

1549
00:57:10,630 --> 00:57:08,319
uh the spr um in the uk so the society

1550
00:57:13,109 --> 00:57:10,640
of psychic research is

1551
00:57:15,829 --> 00:57:13,119
very you know it's a very old society

1552
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:15,839
it's been doing that very question

1553
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:18,640
um looking into

1554
00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:21,040
post um death

1555
00:57:25,349 --> 00:57:23,680
uh consciousness research for 150 years

1556
00:57:28,230 --> 00:57:25,359
you know that's one of the leading

1557
00:57:30,309 --> 00:57:28,240
institutions there are universities

1558
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:30,319
the university of virginia for example

1559
00:57:34,069 --> 00:57:32,240
is tasked with

1560
00:57:36,789 --> 00:57:34,079
consciousness research

1561
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:36,799
on that question and on

1562
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:39,920
reincarnation and the continuity of uh

1563
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:42,799
consciousness before and after death so

1564
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:44,559
you know there there are it's a growing

1565
00:57:51,630 --> 00:57:48,480
field but it's it's a relatively

1566
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:51,640
recent field in terms of its

1567
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:55,200
acceptability by mainstream academia

1568
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:56,960
right excellent

1569
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:58,400
well before we go i'm just going to give

1570
00:58:01,990 --> 00:58:00,240
a quick shout out jimmy the earthling uh

1571
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:02,000
thank you so much for the donation and

1572
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:04,240
the lovely comment great discussion

1573
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:05,440
it's been my pleasure and it's been

1574
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:07,359
absolutely wonderful well

1575
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:09,040
nick thank you so much that was

1576
00:58:13,910 --> 00:58:12,000
fascinating i knew it would be um

1577
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:13,920
so yes thank you ever so much

1578
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:15,280
cheers video good to see you thanks for

1579
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:17,440
having me on pat my pleasure thank you

1580
00:58:21,270 --> 00:58:19,440
to everybody that was in the comments

1581
00:58:23,349 --> 00:58:21,280
in the live chat for keeping it nice and

1582
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:23,359
mature and clean i always appreciate

1583
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:25,680
that i will be back next week you can go

1584
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:27,760
over to my instagram or my twitter to to

1585
00:58:31,829 --> 00:58:29,760
see who i've got coming up next but for

1586
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:31,839
now everyone enjoy the rest of your day